Hapo Mwanzo Palikuwa Na Nini?!...science Vs divinity

Steve Dii

Steve Dii

JF-Expert Member
Jun 25, 2007
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Habari zenu?!


"Hapo mwanzo palikuwa na nini" ni swali ambalo naona tumekumbana nalo toka tukiwa shule za chekechea. Na hii leo nimeamua kuliibua hapa JF, kunradhi kama litawaboa!

Haya sasa, kwa elimu yote uliyokusanya na nasaha mbalimbali ulizokutana nazo maishani toka ujiulize kwa mara ya kwanza; sasa je umeshapata jibu la swali hili?

Ndugu, naomba kama utachangia uwe huru kujibu jinsi upendavyo. Lakini pia kama utapenda unaweza kuingiza nasaha zako kwenye maswala yafuatayo katika kujibu:

---uelewa wako kuhusiana na ulimwengu/galaxy, yaani cosmic system.

---uelewa wako kuhusiana na evolution/parallel evolution of living organisms.

---uelewa wako kuhusiana na theory za continental drift.

---uelewa wako kuhusiana na maandishi matakatifu, Quran, Bible etc kuhusu kuumbika kwa ulimwengu.

---uelewa wako kuhusina na ahera/jehanamu (eternal flame).

---uelewa wako kuhusiana na mbingu na nchi kifizikia na tofauti au wiano zake kiimani/dini.

---uelewa wako kuhusiana na 'reincarnation'

---uelewa wako kuhuisiana na kuwepo kwa dinosaurs na kutoweka kwao.

---uelewa wako wa umri wa ulimwengu, big bang theory na antimatter.

---n.k.7

Natanguliza shukrani zangu.

SteveD.
 
Steve,

Itabidi ueleze mwanzo in terms zipi, kwa sababu kuna mwanzo baada ya big bang halafu kuna huko ambako sayansi haiwezi hata kukuelezea kwa sababu time and space kama tunavyoijua imeanzia kwenye big bang.Na kuna point ya "singularity" inafikiwa kwenye big bang ambapo kila theory ya physics tuijuayo inavunjika.

Ni kwa sababu hii Wakatoliki wame i endorse theory ya big bang, kwa kusema kuwa limitation ya human knowledge inaonyesha mkono wa mungu pale katika singularity.I personally beg to differ.

The one good thing I like about Science is its honesty. Scientist acknowledge that the Question is not an easy one to say the least.the Nobel Laureate Steven Weinberg acknowledges this in his bestseller science/cosmogony pop bestseller "The First Three Minutes"

Kwa hiyo at least Science is honest about it, we don't know, we are studying concepts za Multiverse (Leonard Susskind "The Cosmic Landscape: String Theory and the Illusion of Intelligent Design") and other theories such as M Theory to explore the very nature and fabric of space-time continuum.

Science does not claim to know all the answers but will take all questions.

Divinity on the other hand, at least as professed by Judeo Christian traditions claims to know all the answers but would not take any probing questions.
 
Pundit said:
Steve,


Science does not claim to know all the answers but will take all questions.

Divinity on the other hand, at least as professed by Judeo Christian traditions claims to know all the answers but would not take any questions.
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Good point Pundit, thanks!

Ok, with earnest, don't you see that the two (science and divinity) sometimes resort to same tactics?! i.e. resort to forcefeeding believers,(call them trusters in science) with unproven, unlogical or simply unverifiable things... eg, we see in Bible the script that ' hapo mwanzo palikuwa na neno' and in the samelight, science goes ahead to provoke similar reaction to its trusters, when it talks unverifiably of quantum physics and the unlikely nature of Helium and Hidrogen exploding on year one of the scientific genesis to form the entire universe with its clone 'time'...
...There you go, in my opinion what I see here is science being turned into hypothetical doctrine. Pundit, should I place the two in same basket on this case?


SteveD.
 
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep;and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of waters. Genesis 2:1-2.

You can continue reading the whole of Genesis one on creation.

To know in depth some of these issues, i suggest you find this information on the following website http://www.thinairevent.com

http://www.itiswritten.com/store/products/out_thin_air_2_disc_dvd_set

by Shawn Boonstra

The creation/evolution debate has been raging for decades, and a number of fundamental issues lie at its core—some of the biggest questions in the universe:

• Does God exist?
• Where do human beings come from?
• What story does the fossil record tell?
• What is the meaning of life?

In this two-disc DVD set, Pastor Boonstra and biologist Timothy Standish, Ph.D., use the Bible and scientific studies to explore these important questions and their meaning for everyday life. These four programs take a unique approach to the topic—rather than simply defending creation, they tackle Darwin’s claims head-on to reveal that life does have meaning and purpose.

Included in this DVD set:

1. Four presentations by Pastor Boonstra:
* The Big Question — Ancient writings tell the story of an omnipotent God who brought this universe into existence. Does He really exist?
* The Hidden History of the Human Race — Evidence seems to suggest that our ancient past might be different than what we’ve believed for generations. Is it true?
* Secrets in Stone — The more we dig into the earth, the more surprises we find. What happened to this planet in the distant past?
* Out of Thin Air — Amazingly, there are reliable answers to the most important questions ever asked by human beings. Find out why you’re here!

Source:http://www.itiswritten.com/store/products/out_thin_air_2_disc_dvd_set
 
Pundit said:
Steve,

Itabidi ueleze mwanzo in terms zipi, kwa sababu kuna mwanzo baada ya big bang halafu kuna huko ambako sayansi haiwezi hata kukuelezea kwa sababu time and space kama tunavyoijua imeanzia kwenye big .
.
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Sahihisho kidogo sio space and time tena ila ni space-time na kuna tofauti kubwa sana katika uandikaji wa na utamkwaji wa hivyo vitu viwili....
 
SteveD said:
Good point Pundit, thanks!

Ok, with earnest, don't you see that the two (science and divinity) sometimes resort to same tactics?! i.e. resort to forcefeeding believers,(call them trusters in science) with unproven, unlogical or simply unverifiable things... eg, we see in Bible the script that ' hapo mwanzo palikuwa na neno' and in the samelight, science goes ahead to provoke similar reaction to its trusters, when it talks unverifiably of quantum physics and the unlikely nature of Helium and Hidrogen exploding on year one of the scientific genesis to form the entire universe with its clone 'time'...
...There you go, in my opinion what I see here is science being turned into hypothetical doctrine. Pundit, should I place the two in same basket on this case?


SteveD.
Click to expand...

True scientists invite criticism and peer review,when true Scientist publish papers, they are more than anything inviting rigorous criticism.There are elements of politics in some scientist, but I am not discussing scientists, I am discussing the ideas, strategies and methods of science.

There are all sorts of variations in the Big Bang Theory, but the good thing is the tradition of science will ensure in time that Drwinism "Surival of the fittest" will make the most logical and true version survive kwa sababu watu wana debate vigorously.Kabla ya big bang kulikuwa na Steady State Theory iliyokuwa ina contend na Big Bang kwa kusema the Universe has had no beginning and will have no end (led by Fred Hoyle the fellow who coined the phrase "Big Bang" in mock).But Steady State failed when Cosmologists were able to observe the universe and verify, and when Edwin Hubble discovered that the Universe is expanding and galaxies are moving away from each other.Kwa hiyo Sayansi inaweza kuwa haina majibu sahihi leo lakini ina converge kwenye majibu by way of vigorous debate and improvisation.

Religion is dogmatic and static.

On the side of religion the whole enterprise is political and therefor suspect.
 
kijakazi said:
sahihisho kidogo sio space and time tena ila ni space-time na kuna tofauti kubwa sana katika uandikaji wa na utanmkwaji wa hivyo vitu viwili....
Click to expand...


Mimesema hapo juu kuhusu space-time continuum, sasa si kila mtu anajua space-time ni nini ndiyo maana natumia space and time na space-time continuum interchangeably.

Space-time continuum carries different dimensions, some spatial and the one time dimension, kwa hiyo kusema space-time, space-time continuum au space and time vyote ni sahihi.
 
SteveD said:
Good point Pundit, thanks!
, when it talks unverifiably of quantum physics and the unlikely nature of Helium and Hidrogen exploding on year one of the scientific genesis to form the entire universe with its clone 'time'...
samahani kidogo embu elezea kiundani kidogo unamaanisha niktk hiyo mistari minne uliyoandika....kwa maana umeandika kuhusu qm na helium na hydrogen naomaba uelezee una maana gani kama inawezekana...
..
Click to expand...
 
Pundit said:
Mimesema hapo juu kuhusu space-time continuum, sasa si kila mtu anajua space-time ni nini ndiyo maana natumia space and time na space-time continuum interchangeably.

Space-time continuum carries different dimensions, some spatial and the one time dimension, kwa hiyo kusema space-time, space-time continuum au space and time vyote ni sahihi.
Click to expand...
Ndugu yangu naomba nijaribu kubishana na wewe kama inawezekana kuna tofauti kubwa unapokuja ktk fizikia kuhusu hivi vitu unapoandika space and time na space-time hilo la pili ni kwamba space na time nikitu kimoja na cha kwanza unamaanisha space na time ni havijaungana, kwa hiyo kwa kifupi SI sahihi kuandika space and time badala ya space-time angalau ktk fizikia...
 
kijakazi said:
Ndugu yangu naomba nijaribu kubishana nawewe kama inawezekana kuna tofauti kubwa unapokuja ktk fizikia kuhusu hivi vitu unapoandika space and time na space-time hilo la pili ni kwamba space na time nikitu kimoja na cha kwanza unamaanisha space na time ni havijaungana, kwa hiyo kwa kifupi SI sahihi kuandika space and time badala ya space-time angalau ktk fizikia...
Click to expand...

Tomato/Tomato

Nimesoma Theory ya Relativity ya Albert Einstein na jinsi alivyoweza kufahamu kuwa time ni dimension moja ya space-time contimuum, kwamba kuna mapana, marefu kina na muda, kwa hiyo space-time continuum ina dimensions nne, tatu za space na moja ya TIME.

Sasa for simplicity's sake nikasema space and time, wewe unataka niseme spacetime. It is the same thing.The difference ni kuwa unaposema space-time unavilump vyote katika hiyo continuum.Unaposema time and space una separate spatial dimensions tatu na ile moja ya time. I do not see where the hardship is.
 
kijakazi said:
,
when it talks unverifiably of quantum physics and the unlikely nature of Helium and Hidrogen exploding on year one of the scientific genesis to form the entire universe with its clone 'time'...
Click to expand...

samahani kidogo embu elezea kiundani kidogo unamaanisha niktk hiyo mistari minne uliyoandika....kwa maana umeandika kuhusu qm na helium na hydrogen naomaba uelezee una maana gani kama inawezekana...
..
Click to expand...
Kijakazi, asante kwa hoja yako.
Labda tu nianze kwa kukiri kuwa siyajui mambo haya kindani sana.. ila nikiwa kama mwanadamu anayependa kuelewa asili ya mambo, nalazimika tu kuuliza au kuyaongelea, walau basi nipate ujuu juu wake.

Nimeongelea quantum mechanics hapo ikiwa mojawapo ya vitu ambavyo vimebakia kama zana pekee za kuelezea chanzo cha ulimwengu katika nyanja za kisayansi, nimefanya hivo kwa kutoa mfano ambao unaweza usilete maana sana, maana kama nilivyosema si kwamba najua haya yote kiundani sana, na ndiyo haja yangu ya kuuliza. Basi katika huo mfano, ninachojua au kukumbuka ni kuwa, hydrogen atom ndiyo ikiwa kama yenye lightest mass ndiyo ilikuwa kitu cha kwanza hapa ulimwenguni kabla ya (kuungana na helium sijui) na kulipuka na mambo mengine ya big bang kufatia.

Basi nikatika nadharia hiyo nami naquestion science, hiyo helium au hydrogen ilitoka wapi... na ndipo hapo najumuisha hoja hiyo katika yale yale ya divinity ya kuwa, hapo mwanzo palikuwa na neno. Maana science na formulae zote za kuprove kitu cha mwanzo hapa ulimwenguni naona nayo imeshindwa.
... sijui kama nitakuwa nimeelezea kimaana hapa. pls let me know. thanks.

SteveD.
 
SteveD said:
Kijakazi, asante kwa hoja yako.
Labda tu nianze kwa kukili kuwa siyajui mambo haya kindani sana.. ila nikiwa kama mwanadamu anayependa kuelewa asili ya mambo, nalazimika tu kuuliza au kuyaongelea, walau basi nipate ujuu juu wake.

Nimeongelea quantum mechanics hapo ikiwa mojawapo ya vitu ambavyo vimebakia kama zana pekee za kuelezea chanzo cha ulimwengu katika nyanja za kisayansi, nimefanya hivo kwa kutoa mfano ambao unaweza usilete maana sana, maana kama nilivyosema si kwamba najua haya yote kiundani sana, na ndiyo haja yangu ya kuuliza. Basi katika huo mfano, ninachojua au kukumbuka ni kuwa, hydrogen atom ndiyo ikiwa kama yenye lightest mass ndiyo ilikuwa kitu cha kwanza hapa ulimwenguni kabla ya (kuungana na helium sijui) na kulipuka na mambo mengine ya big bang kufatia.


sawa mzee nimekuelewa, mimi ninachoweza kusema nikwamba chanzo cha ulimwengu kama kinavyojulikana na wanafizikia ni hiyo bing bang ambalo ni neno tuu mtu fulani kalipa na inamaanisha singularity ambapo kila kitu (space-time) kilifinyangwa ktk njuzi joto nyingi sana na baada ya hapo ikaanza kutanuka na ndio mwanzo wa kila kitu na hicho kitendo kilitokea kama miaka bilioni 15 iliyopita, na ilichukua muda mpaka wanadamu wakaanza kuishi nafikiri ni miaka bilioni 6 kama sikosei....sasa maswali kama kwa nini tupo hapa duniani mimi nafikiri ni magumu sana na mimi jibu langu ni kwamba tumepotea tuu ktk ulimwengu huu bila dhumuni/umuhimu wewote...na kuhusu ni nini kilikuwapo kabla ya singularity bado hatujaweza kufahamu... cha muhimu tu ni kwamba bado tuna muda zaidi ya miaka 10 000 ya kuishi na hiyo inamaanisha kuwa hau/tuwezi kutatua matatizo yote yanayotukabili leo hii
hivyo basi wewe fanya unachoweza ili uwachie wajao na wao wataendeleza kwani na siku moja labda watafahamu majibu yake...
ILA CHA MUHIMU NI KWAMBA KILA MTU ANA JUKUMU NA WAJIBU AIDHA AWE MTU MWEYE DINI AU ASIYE NA DINI LA KUILINDA NA KUITUNZA DUNIA YETU NA SI KIHARIBU.....
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To add some meat,

sawa mzee nimekuelewa, mimi ninachoweza kusema nikwamba chanzo cha ulimwengu kama kinavyojulikana na wanafizikia ni hiyo bing bang ambalo ni neno tuu mtu fulani kalipa
Click to expand...

Huyo mtu fulani anaitwa Fred Hoyle, mwanafizikia wa Kiingereza ambaye alikuwa anapinga theory hii ya mwanzo wa mlipuko, yeye alikuwa champion wa Steady State theory iliyokuwa inapingana na big bang kwa kusema kuwa ulimwengu hauna mwanzo.Jina big bang alilisema kama mockery kwamba ulimwengu hauwezi kuanza na big bang from nowhere, jina lika stick.

kwa mujibu wa "The Standard Model" na observation theory ya big bang imeonekana kuwa consistent kisayansi kuliko steady state theory

na inamaanisha singularity ambapo kila kitu (space-time) kilifinyangwa ktk njuzi joto nyingi sana na baada ya hapo ikaanza kutanuka na ndio mwanzo wa kila kitu na hicho kitendo kilitokea kama miaka bilioni 15 iliyopita,
Click to expand...

Singularity haikutokea katika nyuzi joto nyingi sana, ilitokea katika infinite heat and density and infinitely distorted space-time, ndiyo maana ikawa singularity kwa sababu entities zake ziko infinite and therefore incalculable.Wanasayansi wakikutana na singularities katika mathematical models hufanya mbinu kutafuta jinsi ya ku cancel out hizi infinities lakini katika nanoseconds chache za Mwanzo za Big Bang Mpaka leo hamna jinsi ya ku cancel out infinities (Checki "The First Three Minutes" cha Steven Weinberg).the only way to get around this is by getting a unification theory of gravity, a theory that will combine quantum physics with Relativity.Anybody who will do this has a Nobel waiting for him and the honor of succeeeding Einstein.Einstein spent the latter part of his life trying to find this so called "Theory of Everything" with no success.Some scientist calculate that it may take another hunderd years to find a meaningful theory fit for this title.

Singularities kama hizi pia hutokea katikati ya black holes.Hii inawafanya wanasayansi wengine kuamini kuwa huenda universes nyingine kama yetu huwa zinazaliwa at the hearts of supermassive black holes, ni kama universes zina njia ya kubranch out na kufanya baby universes zinazo evolve, na pengine universe yetu ilitoka katika universe nyingine katika jinsi hii.

Wengine wanaamini ukiweza ku manipulate your way through a black hole/ wormhole unaweza kutokea kwenye universe nyingine ambayo kanuni za physics zinaweza kuwa tofauti na yetu.Au unaweza kwenda kwenye sehemu ya mbali sana ya Universe yetu.

Definitions

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/singularity

Astrophysics A point in space-time at which gravitational forces cause matter to have infinite density and infinitesimal volume, and space and time to become infinitely distorted.

Mathematics A point at which the derivative does not exist for a given function but every neighborhood of which contains points for which the derivative exists. Also called singular point.


The widely accepted to be more accurate figure is 13.7 billion +- 120 million years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

na ilichukua muda mpaka wanadamu wakaanza kuishi nafikiri ni miaka bilioni 6 kama sikosei....
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The earliest life form zimetokea duniani 400 million years ago, time from big bang is 13.7 billion years ago, so life has existed for less than half a billion years, and the universe existed without life (at least on earth) for about 13.3 billion years, not 6 billion years.

Hominidae wameanza kutokea miaka million 15 tu iliyopita

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_human_evolution


sasa maswali kama kwa nini tupo hapa duniani mimi nafikiri ni magumu sana na mimi jibu langu ni kwamba tumepotea tuu ktk ulimwengu huu bila dhumuni/umuhimu wewote...
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I don't know about kupotea, but I have to agree with the purposelessness of evolution.We are asking these questions because of the Anthropic Principle

na kuhusu ni nini kilikuwapo kabla ya singularity bado hatujaweza kufahamu...
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idea nzima ya "kabla ya singularity" ni potofu,hamna kabla ya singularity kama vile ambavyo hamna north of north pole, at the north pole any point you will go will be south, katika singularity ndipo time na space (space-time continuum) vilipoanza, kwa hiyo hakuna kabla ya singularity katika traditional sense ya timeline, inawezekana kabla ya singularity kulikuwa na dimension nyingine ya time ambayo ni different from our own dimension of time (kama dimensions za space zilivyo tofauti) au universe yetu ili bubble up from some energy pertubation from another universe totally cut off in the what Leonard Sussking calls "The Multiverse"

cha muhimu tu ni kwamba bado tuna muda zaidi ya miaka 10 000 ya kuishi na hiyo inamaanisha kuwa hau/tuwezi kutatua matatizo yote yanayotukabili leo hii
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Don't be too sure about that, one rogue asteroid like the one that was a near miss in 1910 at Tunguska Siberia or the one that is purpoted to cause an extinction level event that killed the Dinosaur some 60 million years ago and we are all toasted.

Or better yet, a madman in the white house and/or Kremlin and one too many bottle of Vodka!
 
hii ni ishu kubwa wajameni..mi naona kila mtu aelekee kwenye imani yake tu..kama unaamini sayansi zaidi basi amini ivyo ivyoo..kama maandiko matakatifu basi wewe aminia ivyo ivyo..coz this is the endless debate..hamuwezi mka reach concl kwa hili..kila mtu atatetea imani yake tu..
 
Hapo mwanzo palikuwa na Allah. Kila kitu kilichofuata kiliundwa na Allah. Hiyo space na universe pia binaadamu wote wameumbwa na Allah.

Nobody made Allah. Allah reports to no one. We humans, angels, ghosts and every living thing you can think off reports to Allah.
 
Scientists uncover Sodom's fiery end

By the BBC's Andrew Craig

British scientists believe they may have found evidence to support the Bible's account of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

But they think a natural cause, rather than God's anger, lay behind the calamity.

_1497476_martin300.jpg

The Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, by John Martin (1789-1854)
How British artist John Martin imagined the cities' end​

Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven

Genesis 19: 24, 25
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The Bible describes how the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed in a storm of fire and brimstone - a punishment from God because of their people's depravity.

But now a retired British geologist, Graham Harris, believes he may have proved that the two cities really existed, and may have explained why they perished.

Unstable area

Dr Harris thinks Sodom and Gomorrah were built on the shores of the Dead Sea so that they could trade in naturally-occurring asphalt.

This tarry substance was used in ancient times to waterproof boats and to hold stones together in buildings.

But the ground next to the Dead Sea is very unstable, lying on the joint between two of the Earth's tectonic plates which are moving in opposite directions.

The area is vulnerable to earthquakes.

Flammable methane

Geological and archaeological evidence suggest that a huge one took place about four and a half thousand years ago - the time of the Biblical destruction.

Flammable methane pockets lie under the Dead Sea shores; the earthquake would have ignited them, the ground would have turned to quicksand, and a massive landslide would have swept the cities into the water.

Experiments carried out at Cambridge University have backed up this account.

But more conclusive evidence is still needed; not unless the remains of Sodom and Gomorrah are found under the Dead Sea's salty waters will the theory be proved.
Click to expand...
Source: BBC


SteveD.
 
..... jiwe lenyewe hili hapa chini:

A Cuneiform clay tablet which for over 150 years defied attempts at interpretation has now been revealed to describe an asteroid impact which in 3123 BC hit Köfels, Austria, leaving in its wake a trail of destruction which may acccount for the biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah.

clay_tablet.jpg


The "Planisphere" tablet (see pic) - inscribed around 700 BC - was unearthed by Henry Layard in the remains of the library of the Assyrian royal palace at Nineveh, close to modern-day Mosul, Iraq. It's a copy of the night diary of a Sumerian astronomer containing drawings of constellations and "known constellation names", but it required modern computer tech to finally unravel its exact meaning........
Click to expand...

Source: http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?p=5306353

SteveD.
 
The recent Nasa' Phoenix mission arouses even more questions... Hapo Mwanzo Palikuwa Na Nini?!
 
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